Prediction Blog: Grimm vs Antasma

 

"Of all the things you choose in life, you don't get to choose what your nightmares are. You don't pick them; they pick you." - John Irving

Grimm, the enigmatic master of Hollow Knight's Grimm Troupe.

Antasma, the dreaded Bat King scourge of Dream Team's Pi'illo Island.

Nightmares. Ever since our minds first figured out how to form thoughts, they've used them against us. Every waking moment, they linger in the back of our heads, only to finally strike as we drift off to sleep. Thus, imagine an entity capable of bending these fears beneath their thumbs, controlling the masses for their nefarious purposes.

Today, we find out who would prevail if such an event came to happen. Nightmare vs Nightmare, Dracula vs Dracula, Fear vs Dread. Only one can prevail, the question is just who? So turn off your lights, and let's find out!

Before we begin...

This blog features massive spoilers for all of Hollow Knight, as well as Mario & Luigi: Dream Team. Obviously.


Now, if your thought process is anything like my friends when I told them I was gonna do this blog, you're probably thinking "What's the point? Doesn't Antasma scale to the Galaxy-Party-Plato-whatever combined multiversal Mario cosmology?".


Well, yeah, but that'd be lame.

In order to analyse this matchup as something else than a one sided beatdown in Antasma's favour, I've made the choice to ONLY give him scaling to things that happen within the Mario & Luigi franchise up to Dream Team. That means no Mario Galaxy, no Mario Party, no Paper Mario, and yes, no Paper Jam or Brothership. In my eyes, this is the best way to handle this matchup, as it actually gets very interesting to cover with these limitations.

Don't believe me? Allow me to show you.



(be prepared for a lot of boss fight gifs)

Source Citations

Background

Grimm

The kingdom of Hallownest, eternal in ruin. Once a thriving land of prosperity, it now lies in waste, ruined by the dangerous Infection. Although the Pale King gave his best attempt at preventing the spread by containing it within vessels, the Radiance's light still brought devastation.

Yet, one of the vessels climbed it's way out of the abyss and began exploring the kingdom, and during a venture into the Howling Cliffs, they found a strange lantern hidden away in the caverns. The activation of the lantern brought-

THE GRIMM TROUPE, ladies and gentlemen! Oh, what enigmatic mystery this travelling circus brings with it, oh the performance! But although it's already a feast for the eyes, none of it compares to a sight of the Troupe Maste himself; Grimm!

Why does he travel such far distances? Why does he employ such a strange crew of misdoers? Why does he task the Knight with the mission to ignite the flame?

Well, the truth is that Grimm and his troupe are actually slaves to the Nightmare's Heart, a being of higher power that feasts upon dreams. And such, the Knight was in actuality tricked into partaking in its twisted ritual to create a new host. 

Where they went from there isn't quite clear. Either they did their part in the ritual, battling and slaying the Nightmare King to perpetuate the cycle, or they teamed up with one of the troupe's members to end the ritual forever, banishing the nightmare for good.

Antasma

  • Full Name: King Antasma / Count Antasma
  • Species: Vampire bat
  • Age: Unknown, several centuries 
  • Dislikes: Dreambert, Zeekeeper, Mario & Luigi, Bowser, free will, happiness, basically everyone that isn't himself
  • Has a- SCREEP - very veird- SCREEONK - speech impediment
Far away from the mainland of the Mushroom Kingdom floats a sleepy little land known as Pi'illo Island, ruled by its namesake, the Pi'illo kind. For as long as can be remembered, these creatures guarded not just the island, but also it's most treasured artefacts; a twin pair of mystical stones birthed from dreams. The Dream Stone was made up from the happy dreams of the islands inhabitants, while the Dark Stone was born from their nightmares.

In spite of the potentially dreadful power these stones could bring in the wrong hands, it seemed for a long time like such an idea would never come to fruition. However... we would not be speaking about if it that was the case.


At first, the creature that would one day become Antasma the Bat King was nothing more than a simple, innocent bat. The change into his current self would begin when he one night, for whatever reasons, feasted on the nightmare of a Pi'illo. Instantly, the bat was hooked, and continued absorbing more and more nightmares, which twisted his mind and made him hungry for more... but there was nothing that could satisfy his nightmarish hunger.

At least, that was until he learned of the Dark Stone. A stone literally born from the idea of nightmares? Why, that's as if made just for him!


But as you may expect, the Pi'illo didn't exactly agree with him, most of all their heroic leader; Prince Dreambert. Together with the Pi'illo deity the Zeekeper, they battled Antasma, and managed to seal him deep within the Dream Realm. Yet, as one final act of malice, Antasma shattered the Dark Stone, spreading its remains as Nightmare Chunks that would petrify the Pi'illo and lock them into a deep sleep.


And thus, the two forces were both locked within their dreams, and that's how it would remain for centuries. Until the day the Mario Brothers would visit Pi'illo Island and accidentally free the beast. Turns out, evil do as evil do, and it just so happens to be that the Koopa King Bowser also was on the islands. What are the chances, right?

The two forces of evil teamed up to destroy their arch-nemesis' once and for all, stealing the still remaining Dream Stone to do so. Yet, Antasma's downfall was always his hubris, as in the end, Bowser betrayed him and took the power for himself, leaving the bat king to do battle with Mario, whiiiiiiich he obviously lost.


Exploding into a burst of dark magic, Antasma was no more. The nightmare was over, and Pi'illo Island was finally safe.

Equipment

Grimm

Nightmare Lantern

The calling card for the Grimm Troupe, a beacon placed in whatever location the followers decide that they shall visit next. Should the lantern be activated, the Troupe will arrive soon.

Grimmchild

A vital step of the ritual is cresting a new host for the Nightmare's Heart to feed upon, and that comes in the form of the Grimmchild Charm. Created by Grimm, the Grimmchild isn't something he himself utilises, but he does give it to the Knight and it clearly possesses combative abilities. Sure, said abilities do simply consist of shooting balls of fire at the nearest target, but I digress.

Grimmkin

Loyal followers of the Troupe, the Grimmkin are willing participants in the nightmare ritual. As part of the ritual, the three group members (Novices, Masters, and Nightmares) harvest nightmare flames and feed them to the Grimmchild. They all possess the ability to teleport and control fire.

Antasma

Dark Stone

Antasma's most prized possession. As one of the two mystical stones of Pi'illo Island, the Dark Stone held the ability to grant any wish its user could ever imagine. But, due to it being... yknow, destroyed, Antasma can no longer use it. However, what he can use is the Nightmare Chunks created from it's destruction. These dark crystal will petrify anything they come into contact with, forcing them into an eternal sleep that can only be undone if the chunk within the Dream World is shattered.

Dreambeats

An ancient creation by the Pi'illo kind, the Dreambeats are a set of large speakers that produce a melody capable of putting anyone to sleep, with the exception of the Pi'illo themselves and similar entities. The Dreambeats are capable of producing beats over an entire island, but their effect can also be nullified by just plugging your ears.

Antasmunchies

Yummers

Antasmunchies are.... candies? creatures? crystals? Whatever they are, Antasma can create as many of them as he wishes out of thin air, easily replenishing their numbers when they're destroyed, and devour them in order to juice his attack power up.

Powers and Abilities

Grimm

SOUL

In Hollow Knight, most living beings possess a SOUL, the manifestation of their mind, soul, and life essence, an invisible energy that animates all living beings. As such, Grimm also has a SOUL, likely being the source of his impressive magic.

As Nightmare King Grimm, with the power of the Nightmare's Heart, it's likely Grimm has the ability to focus his SOUL in order to heal. After all, it seems to be an innate ability for Higher Beings, even if there is technically no proof of him being able to do this.

Magic

Grimm isn't just a circus leader, he's also a magician! With a snap of his fingers, he can lighten up an entire stadium full of people, and he's also capable of bending fire to his will, utsiling flames in the majority of his attacks.

Creation / Summoning

In addition, Grimm is able to spawn in objects and entities from nowhere through unexplained means. Examples include a chest, the Grimmchild Charm, and, considering how it appeared in Dirthmouth from nowhere, potentially the entire Grimm Troupe circus tent.

Dream Manipulation

Of course the king of Nightmares can bend dreams beneath his thumb... although we don't know exactly how. As Grimm states himself within the Hunter's Journal (see image above), he can at the very least transport himself through dreams to some extent, potentially in a way similar to the Dream Nail, which is stated to "cut through the veil that separates the waking world from our dreams".

Teleportation

His favourite trick. Grimm is capable of quick and speedy teleportation, allowing him to warp around the battlefield and his enemies with ease, giving him complete control of the area. He frequently combines teleports with his attacks, making it difficult to see which way he'll be coming from.

Dive Dash

Grimm's most standard of attacks, where he simply twirls his cloak around himself to take a drill-like shape, and dives at his target.

Dash Uppercut

Grimm preforms a two-hit combo consisting of a sweeping dash attack and a rising uppercut. When the second attack is done, he teleports away and rains down five fireballs.

Cloak Spikes

Grimm extends his cloak into the floor, shaping it into several long and pointy spikes that burst out to skewer his target.

Fire Bats

Taking a direct page out of his inspiration's book, Grimm holds his cloak open, summoning out from it three flaming projectiles in the shape of bats, which slightly home in on enemies.

Pufferfish

Yes, it is called that.

When in a dire situation, Grimm is capable of swelling up to a larger size in order to unleash and absolute hailstorm of fireballs projectiles. Better get good at dodging, buddy!

Fire Pillars

Grimm summons three to four pillars of flame, which erupt beneath his opponent and remains lingering for a few seconds after activation.

This attack is technically only used by the Nightmare King, but given Grimm's mastery over fire and the Grimmkin's ability to do the same attack, he can likely replicate it in base as well.

Swarm

More of a defence maneouvre than anything else, Grimm has the ability to split into a swarm of bugs to fly around and try to avoid attacks. After a bit, he'll merge back into his normal form. Worth noting, only one of the bugs (Presumably Grimm's central one) is capable of being damaged in this state.

Resistances

  • Soul, Mind, and Life-Force Manipulation: At least to some degree, considering he can still fight at full capacity whilst the Knight is absorbing his soul with every nail swing.
  • Mental / Dream Manipulation: Grimm can recognise when the Knight uses the Dream Nail on him, something which requires an immense level of resistance. As an entity who travels through dreams regurarly, it's fair to say he can resist any similar tricks.

Antasma

Dream Manipulation

His signature trick, Antasma is no stranger to using the power of the Dream World to torment his enemies. Not only does he increase in power when within it, but he's also unrestrained and uncontrolled, allowing him to use his nightmarish abilities to their full potential.

And that comes true in his final battle, where each and every one of his attacks has the potential to inflict an effect on Mario, trapping him within an eternal nightmare of being chased until he finds the right rift out, each wrong one leading to a saw-filled death fall. Reminder that this fight takes place within the Dream World, meaning Antasma can literally trap you in a nightmare... within a nightmare.

Teleportation

Befitting a magical king, Antasma is capable of near-instantaneous teleportation. He usually only uses this for traversal though, and not in most combat scenarios.

Portal Creation

(The guy has like 30 minutes of screen time cramped into a single game it's impressive that I only had to reuse a gif for him once in this entire blog)

After wishing for this ability from the Dream Stone, Antasma also gained the ability to open portals in and out of the Dream World at any point, giving him instantaneous traversal to it. He can open several portals at once, and use them to send attacks from within the Dream World into the material one.

Possession / Empowerment

Just like how Dreamy Luigi supercharges Mario in his Dream World fights, Antasma was able to do the same to Bowser. This increased his strength, durability, and juiced up all of his normal powers.

Sound Manipulation

Antasma can produce ear- SCREEP -piercing sonic booms from his mouth to shatter the eardrums of his foes.

Elemental Manipulation

Antasma's dark magic grants him the ability to manipulate the elements for deadly attacks, such as charging up powerful electric spheres or breathing fire from his mouth, as well as the power to strengthen others similar abilities.

Telekinesis

Self-explanatory. The bat king can lift objects with only his mind. This extends to non-physical targets as well, as demonstrated when he force grabbed Dreamy Luigi out of Mario. 

Forcefield Creation

For when he wishes to defend himself or others, Antasma can project dark barriers capable of damaging anyone who tries to touch them.

Healing

While resting within his forcefields, Antasma is capable of regenerating lost health. It's unknown if he can do this whenever he wants, but it can be presumed he needs to at least be in some state of relaxation to do it, seeing as the only time he does so it whilst hanging upside down under his barrier.

Dream Vines

Dark and twisted thorns born from Antasma's nightmarish powers, Dreamy Vines are used by him in order to convert dreams into power, siphoning it from other sleeping people. This maneouvre was interrupted midway through, so it's full potential is unknown, but if he were to harvest enough power from someone powerful enough, who knows what could happen?

Duplication

With ease, Antasma is capable of creating at least 6 identical copies of himself. While it may seem like a weakness that striking the real Antasma destroys the clones, bear in mind that if you don't hit the real one, then they'll all still remain.

Clone Creation

Antasma is also capable of creating "dreamy" clones of other characters to fight alongside him, as showcased by Dreamy Mario. Said Mario clone was then able to duplicate itself several times.

Perception Manipulation

Mmmmmmaybe. During his fight with Mario, Antasma flips the entire screen upside down for one attack. Wether or not this affects Mario's actual sense of direction is unknown, since it's very likely just a gameplay mechanic for the player.

Swarm

Antasma can, of course, turn into a bat. But sometimes thats not enough, so how about an entire swarm of them? This state offers little offence, but a series of quick bites is still capable of overwhelming an opponent. None of the bats seem to be the main one, and he can reform his body even if several of them are destroyed.

Resistances

  • Dream / Sleep Manipulation: Antasma was completely unaffected by the Dreambeats, and as an entity who feeds on nightmares, should be immune to any sleep related shenigans
  • BFR: Can create portals in and out of the Dream World completely unrestricted, meaning he can always escape if trapped.

Transformations

Grimm

Nightmare King Grimm

As the nightmare ritual comes to a close, the troupe master enters a deep sleep, and by travelling into his dreams, the Knight came face to face with the rituals final act: the Nightmare King.

As a direct catalyst of the Nightmare's Heart higher power, the Nightmare King doubles Grimm's already impressive speed and strength, making him almost untrackable to anything but the most experienced of warriors. All of his attacks are not only stronger and faster, but has additional boons. Instead of three fire bats, he sends four. Instead of being present for the cloak spikes, he warps to safety during it. And so on, so forth.

Although the Nightmare King would eventually fall in battle, as everyone who has tried to battle him will affirm, it was not on the first try. So if you're unable to respawn... good luck.

Antasma

Pillow Form

Antasma can turn into a pillow!

Fluffy

Bat Form

His most frequent appearance. Hey, he wouldn't be a real vampire if he couldn't turn into a bat, right?

Cloud Form

A form that Antasma took on while in a weakened state. As a cloud of gas, he can float and pass through objects, yet he was still able to kidnap Peach and carry her through the Dream World.

True Form

Antasma's normal form is simply a much more comfortable appearance to take, and as Bowser would say, it does indeed look pretty evil.

Nightmare Form

The form that Antasma takes both at the beginning of the game during Luigi's nightmare, and towards the end during his final battle against Mario, seemingly being him at his most powerful when unbound within the Dream World.

Feats

Grimm

Overall

  • Heralded as the "God of Nightmares"
  • Tricked the Knight into partaking in his ritual, awakening the Nightmare's Heart in the process.
  • The Nightmare King is considered one of the Higher Beings of Hallownest, akin to the Pale King and the Absolute Radiance.
  • One of the few Godhome Gods to acknowledge the Godseeker, visibly bowing towards her instead of the Knight in battle.
  • The third to last opponent within the Panetheon of Hallownest.
  • Has one of the best boss fights in all of gaming.

Strength

  • Can kill the Knight in just 9 hits, 5 as the Nightmare King.
  • Capable of creating numerous massive flame pillars.

Speed

  • Can match the Knight's attack speed and parry their nail.
  • Can move at what appears to be faster than eyesight speeds. Could also just be teleportation.

Durability

  • Withstood being so RUDELY INTERRUPTED.
  • Can withstand several hits from the Knight's nail and spells.
Yeah that's it. What having two optional boss fights does to a mf

Antasma

Overall

  • By himself, battled the entirety of the Pi'illo species, and almost laid waste to the entire island as a byproduct of his defeat.
  • Planned his escape over the course of centuries.
  • Had Mario and Luigi on the back foot for almost their entire adventure, his and Bowser's combined threat considered worthy for the almighty Zeekeeper to step in.
  • Within the Dream Realm, easily trashed Prince Dreambert and is considered unmatched.
  • One of the deadliest villains Mario has ever faced.
  • The second to last opponent within the Battle Ring.
  • Fought Squidward

Strength

Speed

  • Engaged in a high speed aerial battle with Dreambert.
  • Can fly across Pi'illo Island while carrying Bowser.
  • Chased down Mario within his nightmare.

Durability

Scaling

Grimm

The Knight

Grimm is a very formidable foe within Hallownest, easily attaining the title of godhood by the Godseeker. He proved himself as one of the toughest foes the Knight faced during their adventure, especially as the Nightmare King.
  • Absorbed and contained the entirety of the Infection. 
  • Can attack faster than electric pulses. (Mach 44 - Mach 137)
  • Can move in tandem with the lasers in Crystal Peaks. (8% c) (Credit to Buttersamuri from H1 VS Blogs for the calc)
  • Defeated False Knight, who shattered the floor beneath his arena. (0.001 Tons of TNT)
    • Since this attack from the False Knight only deals one mask of damage, enemies who deal two should be twice as powerful. (0.002 Tons of TNT) Revolutionary.
  • Has fought bugs like Quirrel, Hornet, Mantis Lords, and Hive Knight, all of whom can move at FTE speeds in short bursts.
  • As the Shade Lord, killed the Absolute Radiance, destroying all of Godhome in the process. (Potentially Universal, More detail before the verdicts)

Higher Beings of Hallownest

Speaking of which, the Nightmare King is a direct catalyst for the Nightmare's Heart, one of the Higher Beings of Hallownest. Although the exact comparison is questionable, it's very likely that Grimm can to at least some extent compare to the likes of the Radiance.
  • Inside the Dream Realm, the Radiance first appears as a sun.
  • The Radiance has been explicitly described to have a light "Brighter than Esscence". Esscence is what makes up the Dream Realm, implying the Radiance possesses that level of power. (Likely some degree of Universal. More detail before the verdicts)
  • The Radiance is capable of lighting up the entire Dream Realm. (More detail before the verdicts)
  • The Pale King's followers believe that he created the entire world. Sure, buddy. Sure.

Antasma

The Mario Bros.

Being the penultimate final boss in the line of games we're examining today, Antasma obviously possessed extraordinary might, far above Mario and Luigi for most of their quest, and thus by proxy, all other baddies they've bested. Although he ultimately still lost in the end, he had them on the backfoot for the entire game up until that point.

Dreamy Luigi

Oh, but there's more Luigi to go around! Within the Dream World, Mario teams up with Luigi's self-insert, who can do a lot of wacky stuff! In battle, he even powers up Mario, yet Antasma was still able to take the two on.

Bowser

Although he may not be as mighty as the Koopa King, Antasma and Bowser working together was considered an almost unbeatable threat. And yeah, the dude does fight... and lose to, Mario and Luigi all the time, so he and Antasma can at the very least be compared in terms of casual stats.

The Zeekeeper

And finally, Antasma's second biggest opp. The Zeekeeper may be a giant bum, but his might is not to question. Being the only reason Antasma was sealed away to begin with. However, in the game proper, his boss fight comes before Antasma's, and thus he falls victim to the almighty scaling chain as well.
  • Downed Neo Bowser Castle.
  • Warped space within the Dream World. (More detail before the verdicts)
  • Flew between dimensions through a spatial rift. (More detail before the verdicts)

Weaknesses

Grimm

Although the Nightmare King brings dread into the hearts of many, Grimm is at the end of the day only such a threat due to the strength and speed he holds over others. In a battle against his equal, his attacks are predictable and telegraphed, meaning it won't take long for an experienced opponent to get around him.

Antasma

Antasma is mighty powerful.... but to a fault. The bat king believes himself to be the most powerful person in the room at all times, yet this has been proven wrong again and again. Several of his attacks can be reflected back at him, his healing and forcefields can be interrupted by enough damage, and.... I mean come on the dude got betrayed by Bowser. He may be a skilled planner and combatant, but even someone like him is vulnerable to a sleight of hand sometimes.

Summary

Grimm


Advantages:
  • With the highest estimates, statstomps as the Nightmare King. 
  • Better movement and maneouvreability.
  • Generally better spacing and fight control.
  • Various good AOE attacks.
  • Debatably faster.
  • Can likely escape Antasma's nightmare.
  • Has a BALLER fight song
Disadvantages:
  • Dead(?)
  • Debatably slower.
  • Gets stomped as Grimm.
  • Less variety in powers.
  • Silksong joke 

Antasma


Advantages:
  • Statstomps Grimm.
  • Depending on how view stats, outmuscles the Nightmare King in either a close fight, or a wash.
  • Can take the fight in and out of the Dream World whenever.
  • Debatably faster.
  • More varied powers and abilities.
  • ALSO has a BALLER fight song
Disadvantages:
  • Dead
  • Debatably slower.
  • Doesn't stand a chance against Grimm's highest arguments.
  • Got outsmarted by Bowser like how the fuck-

Before the verdicts

Can the fight even work?

Both Grimm and Antasma are... weird characters to analyse in a VS sense, to the point where it's questionable exactly how their respective abilities even work. What we do know is that both are able to fight within the material world, although they are severely weakened compared to their theoretical best.

Antasma can most likely always achieve his full strength, it's just that being within the Dream World greatly empowers him. Meanwhile, Nightmare King Grimm exists exclusively in the Dream Realm, wether it be inside of Grimm's nightmare, or Godhome.


There's actually a shockingly simple way for this fight to naturally take place and involve the Nightmare King. Antasma has several ways to put Grimm to sleep, and repeatedly uses them against Mario and Luigi, including a specific attack which traps them in a nightmare. Since he gets stronger in the Dream World, it's likely he would then enter Grimm's dreams, and thus come face to face with the Nightmare King, allowing the battle to continue.

Cosmology

Hollow Knight

What is Hollow Knight cosmology exactly?


Well, as you may expect, the key to figuring that out lies within the Dream Realm. According to the official manual of Hollow Knight, the Dream Realm is "A plane beyond the physical world.", and as the Seer states, it is "endless" and exists "Between body and soul". Taking these statements at face value implies that it exists as a sort of parallel world similar to the material one, but unbound in comparison. As it's stated to be endless in size, you can make a solid argument for Hollow Knight's cosmology to contain 2 universes, one of them being infinite. And thus, it is x1 Universal, x1 High Universal.

However, we also know of the Nightmare Realm, thanks to Grimm, of course. Within the Hunter's Journal, it's stated that the Dream and Nightmare Realms were once one, and they were "in past was split", making them two seperate dimensions. Now, as the Dream Realm is stated to be endless, one could make the same argument for the Nightmare Realm as well, giving us 1x Uni, 2x High Uni.


It is unlikely that individual dreams results in individual Dream Realms. We can reach this conclusion since we know that although the Radiance was trapped within the Hollow Knight's dream, she was still able to infect the dreams of others. This would not have been possible for her if these dreams were different realities.

Cosmology Scaling: Grimm

In terms of scaling to the Dream Realm, we can make a few assumptions.

The Higher Beings of Hallownest are explicitly stated to be god-like entities who's power exists above all others, and according to the Seer, the Radiance possessed "Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still". As Essence is what makes up the Dream World, the Radiance's power being stated to be above it checks out, as she wasn't at all weakened by being sealed within the dreams, evident by how she was still able to spread the Infection despite being on an entire different plane of reality. (This would only allow for Dream Realm scaling, as it's unknown if she could affect the real world like this. Still, that's 2x High Universal)

There's also more to this, when the Knight finally kills the Absolute Radiance, they seemingly obliterate the entirety of Godhome in the process, blacking it out with the Void. This further supports the Radiance bringing light to the Dream Realm, as it could be interpreted that her death caused it to physically collapse.



Now, to try and scale Grimm to this.

Like the Radiance, the Nightmare's Heart is a Higher Being, albeit one we know way less about. Although likely weaker than the Radiance, them having this same label means that they are likely somewhat comparable in might. Its just that whereas the Radiance actively uses this power, the Nightmare's Heart is content with simply continuing the Grimm Ritual to sustain itself, seemingly seeking no ulterior motive. 

The Grimm Troupe travels through and manipulates dreams similar to the Radiance, with the Dream and Nightmare Realms at one point even being the same place, and then there's the obvious comparison that the Radiance and the Nightmare King are the only two bosses with full-screen title cards. Not much to go off, but an argument could certainly be made.

Dream Team

Reminder that this segment focuses solely on information given within the Mario & Luigi series of games from Superstar Saga up to Dream Team.

In Mario and Luigi: Dream Team, we are introduced to the apply titled Dream World. Other than the fact that it's... well, the Dream World, as don't get to learn too much about it, but we can make some assumptions based upon information given in the game

Firstly, it's unlikely that individual peoples dreams cause different dream worlds. We see numerous times that different people can have dreams that lead to the same location, and every area of the game's Dream Worlds have consistent themes that imply they're the same place (For instance, one dream in Dreamy Wakeport appears to be the same place as the rest of Dreamy Wakeport).

Secondly, specific "Dream" versions of characters can appear in different locations. There's, of course, Dreamy Luigi, but also someone like Big Massif, who appears in both Dreamy Wakeport and Dreamy Mount Pajamaja.

Thirdly, specific parts of dreams can be expanded. The big plot point in Dreamy Driftwood Shore is the gang trying to hide Peach in the Dream World, but it's too small, and thus they use special Dream Eggs to expand it. However, it's unlikely that this is actually increasing the size of the Dream World itself, and is instead simply just granting access to another part of it. We can see this during the cutscene where it's "expanded", since it very much just simply looks like a seperate section being opened up.

Fourthly, the Dream World contains stars. We see this when Dreamy Luigi preforms Finishing Bros, as he leaps into space to do so. And this isn't just Mario-style Power Stars, but realistic looking stars way out into space, and even what looks like a nebula, and this is consistent with every time he uses this attack, and thus applies to every Dreamy area of the game. Wether this supports all of those areas being in the same place, or them all being different Dream Worlds is questionable. Whatever the case, since this means it contains a version of outer space to some degree, this likely makes the Dream World Universal in size. However, if you think all major Dreamy areas of the game are different dream dimensions (a fair idea considering how different they all are), then that would mean that with 8 main areas, that's a Dream World which is 8x Universal.

Cosmology Scaling - Antasma

Thankfully, scaling Antasma to this is very straightforward. Not only is Antasma fought immediately before Dreamy Bowser, meaning the two should be somewhat comparable in power, but Antasma also just... shattered the Dark Stone. With his bare hand. So yeah.

Cosmology Comparison

Hollow Knight
  • Without statements: N/A
  • W/ statements: High Universal (Infinite)
  • W/ Nightmare Realm: 2x High Universal 
Dream Team
  • Baseline: Contains a nebula, N/A otherwise
  • Assumption: Universal
  • High End W/ Assumption: 8x Universal 
Comparison
  • With lowest number for each, Dream Team's gets above numerous stars, whereas Hollow Knight has nothing. With anything above that, it's the inverse, as even a single infinite universe is.... well, infinitely above the max 8 that Antasma could scale to.
What does any of this mean?

Idk man get your own opinions on it.

Other

Grimm's Regen?

I wasn't even aware that this is a thing people argued until the literal last two days before I finished this blog. Probably because it's stupid.

So, if you go on VsBattles Grimm page you'll see that it links to a feat of where he "Came back after being turned into dust and vapor". Sounds really impressive, right?

Well no it just links to his defeat animation after you beat him during the first fight. Now, I cannot believe that I have to write this out because this should be clear as day to anyone with eyes.


This is not Grimm regenerating. This is Grimm teleporting. There is nothing to suggest that he was "turned into vapor" or whatever, that was just an exgarrated animation that he, ever the showman, put on after his defeat. 

Occam's razor, kids. Occam's razor. 

The Radiance's Speed

"What speed?" are you probably asking as you read this section.

Well, the Radiance is a deity of light, and as the Dream Realm darkens upon her death- yeah you already see where this is going it's a Helios feat.


The argument here is that since the Dream Realm is debatably infinite in size, and the Radiance visibly provides light to it (to the point where it turns completely pitch black upon her death), she is lighting up the whole thing with her power. And since the Knight can dodge light attacks from the Radiance, that equates to infinite speed.

This is... just a little assumptious. It first requires you to believe in the infinite size statement, and then believe that the Radiance is actively attacking at infinite speed with every single light beam. It's hard to argue either for or against this from an objective of a standpoint as possible, so this will have to be another one where you make your own opinions on it.

Zeekeeper Stats

That fucking bird that I hate


When it comes to the Zeekeeper, there are two feats that people like to point at. The first is him traversing into other dimensions seemingly via sheer speed alone, and the other is him apparently warping the entirety if the Dream World. So let's take a look at these feats and discuss why they're.... probably not legit.


FEAT ONE: BING BING WAHOO

When you get far enough into the battle with the Zeekeper, he changes things up by physically flying into a seperate dimension. Surely, this means immeasurable speed, right?

Nope. It is very blatantly a portal, or as the Zeekeeper says himself, a "dimensional rift". As the master of the Dream World (tm) the guy simply has the ability to make portals between different spots in it.

FEAT TWO: WOULD YOU BELIEVE YOUR EYES?

Right before the above feat, the Zeekeeper flies straight up into the skies and seemingly warps the Dream World as an after effect. That's gotta be something, right?

Maybe? We don't actually know what he's doing here, and considering how the surroundings look exactly the same as before he did this, we can't really come to a solid conclusion. Even if we had direct proof of him doing something, we can't exactly say that he affected the entire Dream World, since we only get to see the sky area above where the fight takes place.

Luiginary Works?

Gee I sure hope they do.

Alright, so, Luiginary Works. What the hell are they? Well, what we'll be looking at is specifically the Luiginoid Formation, the most standard of works in the game that you encounter most often. This takes the form is a constellation in the shape of Luigi's head, being composed out of at least 21 styalised pointy stars.

Does this mean that when Dreamy Luigi merges with the Luiginary Works, he merges with the power of 21 stars????

N
No
Obviously not


When activated, all it does is summon several more Dreamy Luigi's, and sure they do one shot every enemy in this form, but they can also all be destroyed by touching a single spiky obstacle. It's just supposed to be a neat visual, don't look into it.

Verdicts

this matchup should not be this complicated jfc

Loka

God, I never wanna see the word "Dream" again

Usually when I'm writing, researching, and making these blogs, I get a pretty good idea on who I think wins partway through. However, this one was unique, to the point where even as I'm writing this, I'm not 100% confident in my answer. And the reason for that is very simple... these two characters were never meant to be analysed like this-

Regardless, a lot of assumptions and guesswork later, here we are. Let's try to figure it out, shall we?


When it comes to attack potency and durability, I believe the two to be somewhat comparable at their best. Obviously, Antasma decimates Grimm with little effort, but the Nightmare King is directly fuelled by the Nightmare's Heart, a Higher Being on the same level of the Radiance, who's light illuminates the entire Dream Realm. 

A concrete size for the Dream Realms from both series is difficult to get, however, I will judge this on the basis of both being universal in size. Both are potentially larger, and potentially smaller, but there's just something in me which thinks of this as the correct way to go about it.

And with that, neither holds a real advantage stat wise. The same can however not be said for speed, as Mario and Luigi's weird... running in tandem with light feat comes out to around 12 times faster than the Knight dodging lasers. Although Grimm is quite clearly the more mobile of the two and utilises his teleportation better in combat, Antasma has a considerable edge in reaction speed, meaning he can adapt to Grimm's moves and use his own evasion abilities to get around them. Point for Antasma.


Moving on, let's compare their arsenal's. Well, arsenal, because Grimm... doesn't really have one. Sure, the Grimmkin can provide some level of support, but they're far from good back-up, and aside from them, most of Grimm's toolset involves fiery projectiles. Antasma can do the same... but also so much more.

He can duplicate himself, summon clones of others, shoot lightning, create barriers, increase his own strength, mess with your perception-

It kind of an obvious advantage, but a really important one to state in this debate. Because I'd they both have similar levels of power, but Antasma is faster, then his insane level of abilities comparatively give him a massive edge that Grimm really doesn't have a way to compete against. Even if Grimm did hold the strength advantage, that's only as the Nightmare King, and with Antasma's ability to create portals in and out of the Dream World at command, he can leave the fight at any time to recover or stack a million Antasmunchie power amps to match.


So, to summarise, power and durability is comparable, but Antasma holds every other edge. Many of Grimm's arguments for higher levels of power are flimsy at best in my opinion, and Antasma has ways around them regardless with his way bigger hax list. It's no shocker that the Nightmare King fell to a grim fate, Antasma is the vinner of this battle. 

Aussie

Usually I have a standard format I do for this, but I’m tired so I’m just gonna speedrun this. 

Grimm should win, since even with the mid ends of high universal for Nightmare King, that’s still way above Antasma’s high-ends since a single infinity is always larger than a higher number of finite things. Though he may be slower and less varied than Antasma, a lot of Antasma’s tricks like taking the fight out of the dream world into reality shouldn’t really work, since he can teleport out of dreams and, from my interpretation, could at least partially resist the Dream Nail, which does similar things. If it weren’t for the fact that Team Cherry were based in Adelaide, then this’d be a complete sweep, but as is, Antasma’s gonna be sleeping like a king.

Chris

On the topic of dreams, play Yume Nikki

Stars shining bright above you…
Night breezes seem to whisper “I love you”…
Birds singing in the sycamore tree…
Dream a little dream of me…

But I guess we're too busy having nightmares of tryhard dracula wannabes, so let's try to get rid of at least one of them, shall we?

In terms of stats, speed at the very least happened to be straightforward. Antasma has a very clear advantage there, though far from one large enough to ensure a blitz. As for power... dreams truly are a blight upon power scaling, aren't they? Based on what Loka proposed in the Cosmology section, I'm fine with the assumption that both of these nightmarish lords possess universal levels of power. I will be the first to admit that it took me quite some time to decide how much I agreed with the higher estimates of power, specifically for Antasma... and I've come to the conclusion that all the Dream Worlds are probably meant to be only one Universe. It simply makes more logical sense from my perspective. So Grimm is much weaker at first, but the Nightmare King changes the game. Though with statements of the Dream Realm being endless, that would mean that Grimm is infinitely stronger, right?

If that's the kind of conclusion you were expecting then this is not the verdict for you. Seer claims that “a dream is endless, a kingdom is not.” To me, this very obviously has nothing to do with size. Kingdoms rise and fall, but a dream stays there forever. Something along those lines fits the narrative and context of Hollow Knight much more, as the fall of Hallownest is a pretty big deal. To use such a thing to argue that Dreams form an infinite universe simply does not sit right with me.

However, I do believe that the Dream Realm is likely a full universe. So for the sake of the debate, Antasma and the Nightmare King's power shall be deemed equal (by me of course you can like disagree and all)

So power is equal but Antasma has the edge in speed. But does Grimm possess any cool hax tricks that can turn the tide? The answer...

Is no, not really.


The Grimmkin could provide some support… but Antasma could easily make them fall asleep and drain them of their life force, enhancing his own power, and possesses much better support in the form of SUPER MARIO!!!!

Grimm could Focus his soul to heal… but we directly see Antasma healing himself in battle, as well as utilizing force fields to increase his defense and using the Antasmunchies to buff himself.


All that and not even mentioning that Antasma can freely create portals to and from the Dream World, so if push comes to shove he can just ignore Nightmare King and nuke base Grimm (the old Hal Jordan strategy)

I don't think there's much more I need to add, Antasma is just a beast.

I was gonna make a mister sandman bit but I couldn't think of any good rhymes for Antasma. T-The winner is Antasma.

Gman

Wow Loka! You were right, this matchup should not be this complicated!

Okay starting off with AP and junk uh, I think the Nightmare King and by extension Grimm should take this. At first glance, Antasma would appear to be stronger stronger through being at least somewhat comparable to Dreamy Bowser... But on the other hand, Hollow Knight's dream realm is HUGE, endless even, The Radiance lit it ALL up, The Knight kicked their ass, and Grimm & The Nightmare King should scale to The Knight. The Nightmare King also shows us that the Nightmare Realm is a thing, and it reasonably should be as endless as the Dream Realm. With all that said I believe Grimm should be stronger.

As for Speed, I believe Grimm should take this as well. Not only is he just more mobile than Antasma, being able to move faster than eyesight, but unlike Antasma he actually uses his teleportation in combat. Alongside this, he should scale to The Knight, who can dodge both electrical pulses and lasers. Antasma in comparison scales to the Mario Brothers, who can react to being shot out of a cannon and moving on foot at the same speed as a beam of light. These feats, however, do not get as fast as The Knight dodging lasers, ergo Grimm should take speed.

Durability should be easier to figure out, as they don't really have durability feats outside of  taking hits from The Knight/The Mario Bros & Bowser. But like, The Knight is stronger than the latter three with just the Mario & Luigi series up to Dream Team, so Grimm is tougher as well.

Tertiary abilities and the like will be a bit tougher to nail down, because they mostly have about the same things. Dream manipulation, resistances to dream manipulation, fire manipulation, summoning, the ability to heal themselves, etc. However, I think Grimm should also win this category due to a single interaction. Antasma's dreambeats cause anybody that isn't a himself or a P'i'illo to fall to sleep. Now this would normally put anybody up for a free attack, but in Grimm's case, it would be Antasma's undoing, since the Nightmare King is summoned by Grimm falling asleep. From there he would simply just outstat Antasma.

So from here, Antasma could only win in his dreams. The winner, is Grimm.

Red

It’s showtime

Strength
Grimm obviously loses this in base, so what about Nightmare King? This is where things get interesting, due to his status as a higher being and the troupe’s ability to traverse and manipulate dreams similar to the radiance, I believe he would be 2x high universal due to similar sizes of the dream and nightmare realm. Now lets see how Antasma stands up to this, due to the visible stars and nebula in the game, I do buy being dream world being universal in size, but that doesn’t bode well due to Grimm at max having two infinite uni backing him up while even at max with assumptions for Antasma, it's just 8x uni. Point for Grimm.

Speed
Speed is relatively equal. You would have to assume the radiance is attacking at immeasurable speeds with each attack, which is extremely unlikely as each attack has different speeds, they’re still fast, but should still be on a quantifiable scale, so that just leaves us with scaling to around light speed reactions, but with Grimm still being relatively faster and having more of a focus on mobility, this point will go to him as well.

Abilities
Though while Grimm has some interesting abilities with flame magic, creation, and teleportation, this is where Antasma starts pulling his weight with more varied abilities like force fields, healing, clones and duplicates, telekinesis, following out of the dream world, possession, portals, etc.

Interactions/Counters
Grimm Counters
  • Getting sucked into the nightmare: Could escape with his own dream manipulation and resistance to it
  • Summons: Has his own
  • BFR: Teleportation
  • Duplicates: Disappears after main one is hit, AOE’s covers this
  • Force Fields: Could possibly be able to teleport into one
Antasma Counters
  • Dream manipulation: From what we’ve seen for both, his is more layered and could possibly override Grimm’s attempts to manipulate it
  • Escaping the nightmare: Antasma can still run your fade from outside it
  • Summons: Has his own, can possess them, can clone Grimm or god forbid Nightmare King to make it more lopsided in his favor
  • Grimm potentially being stronger: Dream vines could possibly drain Grimm’s strength as long as he remains in the dream world
  • AOEs: Telekinesis can redirect the projectiles
  • Nightmare King: Could potentially rip Grimm out of it with telekinesis (more on this later)

OVERALL
So with Grimm’s strength, mobility, dream and AOE’s it seems like he’s a clean cut victor right? But this is where things start going downhill, due to still being relative in speed, Antasma can still use his abilities, a lot which screws Grimm over. His force fields can stave off any attack thrown at him par arguably nightmare king, has quicker and more reliable healing, his duplicates can soak up any non AOE attack for him, can actually null and use some AOE’s for himself with his telekinesis. But this all goes to the wayside with the Nightmare King, who boasts a massive strength edge and speed boost, but Antasma still has two viable options left.
  1. Telekinesis: This seems rather weird to bring up as a counter to a transformation, but there’s one little important detail, Nightmare King Grimm is a host for the Nightmare Heart with its influence residing within Grimm to control him, so how does telekinesis factor into this? He ripped Dreamy Luigi out of Mario, who can enter Mario’s body to empower him, just like how the Heart can empower Grimm, meaning Antasma can always just forcibly undo Nightmare King if he felt like it.

Or if that’s to complicated
  1. Dreamy Clones: Just copy him and let the clones do the work, AOE’s mean jack shit if the clones can just nuke him with their own.
In the end, while it seemed like Grimm had what it takes to win on paper, it was all a hollow dream as Antasma’s equalish speed, confounding abilities, and unique counters were enough for him to battle his way through this knightmare.

Results

Team Grimm: 2 (Aussie, Gman)

Team Antasma: 3 (Loka, Chris, Red)


Hey, did you read this far and enjoy what you saw? Well, then you should follow my BlueSky account! I'll be posting blog updates there as well as all other things Death Battle and what other interests I have! Thanks for reading!

Accounts of my dear verdict writers:

Comments

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

Prediction Blog: Bowser vs Eggman (Part 1: Analysis)

Image
"I'm the boss. I'm the boss. I'm very, very sorry for your loss. I'm the boss. I'm the boss. And just in case I didn't get my point across, I'm the boss " - Big Bad Bosses Luigi, look! Its  Bowser , the tyrannical king of the Koopas. Haha, woah! That's  Doctor Eggman , the ingenious ruler of the Eggman Empire. Their rivalry is legendary. Their fame is unmatched. After over three decades of dealing with pesky plumbers and aggravating animals, these two big bad bosses have hatched through scheme after scheme, and endured failure after failure, yet always risen again with unwavering optimism and their sights set on the goal. But when the extra lives have been spent and the continue button has worn out, only one may stand alone as the superior final boss. Can Sega really do what Nintendon't? Let's find out! Take a shot every time the word "Egg" is written in this blog. (Don't do that, you'd probably die) Before we begin......
Read more

Prediction Blog: Bowser vs Eggman (Part 2: Verdicts)

Image
For the analysis part of the blog, click here . Loka ITS OUT HOLY SHIT There are a few things in life that I feel as proud of as this blog. I got together with some of my best friends, and watching all of us get to work on this thing, it getting longer and longer, an crazier and crazier with every month passing was a fucking unreal feeling. We laughed. We cried. And we panicked when this was revealed as one of the very soon to be upcoming episodes. Good times all around.  And now it's out, so let's finally talk about it! Bower vs Eggman. Where do I even start? Well, let's try to at least be a little focused here. At the peak of their power, they're basically dead even, given how they can both be scaled to theoretically infinitely multiversal cosmologies. Alongside this, the Chaos Emeralds, Phantom Ruby, Wonder Flower, and Dream Stone ensure that they can practically do whatever they want. They just need to really want it, and shit will happen. However, while those thin...
Read more

Prediction Blog: Shadow vs Mewtwo

Image
"For her" Shadow the Hedgehog , the Ultimate Lifeform Mewtwo , the world's strongest Pokémon  It is one thing to fight for power, and one thing to fight for vengeance. But when you are literally designed at your very core to be the strongest being around, your ideals can get muddled. Should you walk the path set down in front of you or take action against those who brought your unholy existence to light? Whatever you pick, make sure you don't lose those last few remnants of humanity along the way. A match destined since 2016, yet for some reason never brough to life , two genetic warriors fight for the title of the true ultimate lifeform today. And when the dust settles, who will be the one to claim that prize? Let's find out! Before we begin... Shadow and Mewtwo are being examined from across all of their officially licensed media. The main focus will of course be on the mainline Sonic the Hedgehog and Pokémon games, but material from the IDW Sonic Comics, the...
Read more